Transcript for "Differences between then and now"

[Luka Wafula] Ese lisina liange, mayi ne papa bandiukha bali wafula bamakhurakho bandiukha bali luka samwene omuengele nemenyile amusikoma.

[Luka Wafula] My parents (father and mother) named me Wafula and they later named me Luka, I am from Baengele clan and I live in Musikoma village.

Naye khukhwibulwa, ese nibulwa salasini na tano.

I was born in 1935.

Naye chinyanga nicho khwama khwibulilwamo chama khuba chinyanga chichindi.

The days we were born in, they were other days.

Neluno luri babana nibo khwibula nganebasomile mala bakenda bibala mala banja khukalikhasiakho kimimama milala.

Today, the children we sire and as they get education, when they travel to other countries, they change some behavior.

Nefwe khwama khuba balimi be kumukhono, khwama khuba baruki be chikhafu nebibiayo.

We have been farmers who use their hands and caretakers for cows and other animals.

Eeh chiosipitali sechamakhubechangao ta.

Eeeh, there were no hospitals.

Omwana malaria nemutilile omusasi atila musifuba-mumbele muno abone mbo bulwale buli waena nesikalabo siewe.

If a child had malaria, a parent would touch him/her on the chest near the breast with his/her palm to determine the sickness.

Mala nabone chindundakilisio nechipa lukali omwana mweneyo baima omundu omwari bali kumuyaka ne bamwara nga bamwara sebarao sindu ta bamukalukhasia busa kakonela lubeka nilwo bamwarire ne khukhwola akoloba abakhulenya okhwo khuweleo nono alia busa biakhulia nebona lundi achaka khwinyaa.

If he feels a strong heartbeat, they would look for a traditional specialist who understands how to treat it, they do a minor operation and they don't put anything on the wound, they just turn him/her to sleep on the operated side. As the evening approaches, the place will have dried up and he/she will be able to eat, then you will see the child start playing.

Nali wechikhafu acha khwaya chikhafu sekene obonekho lundi bali kumuyaka tawe.

If he is supposed to take care of the cows, he will do so, you would not see complaints again.

Nebulwale bwabechangao mbalimbali.

There were many diseases.

Bulwale bwe chikhafu, bulwale bwe babandu yama khubao bulwale bulala bubwama khwiranga babandu bali liele.

Diseases for animals and people, there was another disease called measles which killed many people.

Lilieneli liama khwira bandu bakali nende bulwale bwe lukhenene nibwo bubwama khubechangao lukali.

That and skin disease is what killed so many people, that was very common.

Nono efwe nga khwama khukhula nga ne bakhukhusia nga khwola khuri sekhwama khubona yaba omwana nacha mumalwa ya bakhulu banywela kamalwa tawe.

As we have been brought up until we have reached this point, we never saw a child going to a place where people drink traditional alcohol.

Khaba efwe khwama khunyolanga chingoba nekhwanja khunywa kamalwa.

We started drinking alcohol after marriage.

Nebapapa bakhubitanga nakhubolela ali mwana wase ndiba khukhararandura nakhweuulila kakoo.

The fathers used to guide us saying, "My son, I will be gone but I will hear your story."

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eku kuka, bele omundu kola kimiko nga kinga kiri nio na kanywakho kamalwa?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] How old would someone be to be allowed to drink alcohol?

[Luka Wafula] Nokharera omukhasi webula omwana, ata kamalwa khusesi khwong’ene sonywa ta.

[Luka Wafula] If you were not married, you were not even allowed to drink alcohol from the calabash-made cup.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nebakhaye benywe boosi banywechanga kamalwa?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Did your spouses also drink alcohol?

[Luka Wafula] Bakhaye sabanywechanga ta yaba kamalwa nekali ango.

[Luka Wafula] The spouses did not drink alcohol when they were at home.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeeh.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeeh.

[Luka Wafula] Kamalwa nekali anje alotia alola bibiayo biawa nechingikho, bibiana bialile birie nekacha nio omusakhulu wewe achile bali acha khumulotia.

[Luka Wafula] When alcohol was at home, she had to make sure the domestic animals were well taken care of, the chicken should be in the house and the children should have eaten, then she went to pick the husband up from where he had gone.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Mmmmhhh.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Mmmmhh.

[Luka Wafula] Nono aba niye okane keche omulosi arangira neye asisibasiekho kidogo, nio omusakhulu naye arakho aba enyanga yachichakane khukhwama musakumi na moja eyeyo sakumi na mbili aba balotile bali mungo.

[Luka Wafula] They would go home together, the wife would be walking ahead of him, the husband will wait a bit, then follow her, the sun will be setting at around 5pm to 6pm and they would have gone back home.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Bele sabachelewelao nga be chindalo chino ta?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] They would not overstay like they do nowadays?

[Luka Wafula] Yaba ochelewa salikhoo yesiyesi ta, chisa chilamala chola busa namwe sabola ali sinanu tawe.

[Luka Wafula] There was no one who would be late, there was no excuse.

Kama khumuka kalimile kalwile.

He will be coming from the farm and tired from cultivating.

Kakholile ekasi ye mungo kalwile.

She would be tired after doing the house chores.

Nono bali acha khuulukhakho kitoko niye omusakhulu kekhale nesekane kekhale mubandu babandi ta, acha khwikhala mubikele bio musakhulu wewe.

When she goes to take a rest where the husband will be seated, he will not want her to sit there, she will then not sit at someone's husband's legs but at her husband's legs.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Buli obira nekhwichile nebalosi befwe, buli omulosi kecha nekakhala mubikele bio omusakhulu wewe?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] If we go with our spouses, each woman will sit at her husband's legs?

[Luka Wafula] Bio omusakhulu wewe.

[Luka Wafula] At her husband's.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Kakhanula saembakho nibo ta?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Even if it's sweet, they are not allowed to drink it?

[Luka Wafula] Tawe, nali omukhulu nio owicha bali kecha khumila bamukholela khasekhe khakhembi mala nonywa kamalwa akhwesakhwesa okala sa oli bala muketanga mukhanwa niyo olomele ao aba kekure kumoyo kwakwile nobona abola ali aaahaaah ese nja khulotia chingokho.

[Luka Wafula] No, and if someone elderly came over, she would be given a small straw to use to drink the alcohol, she would drink it so fast as if the alcohol was being poured in her mouth, then she will say how full she was, "I am going to get the chicken inside."

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Mmmmmhhh ne kuka waba ne bakhaye nga banne bari oba nebubwasio oyuno aloma ali ese mulotia luno, okundi busiayo, bario bario kuka namwe abao busa omukhulu nakhulotia ewe nochile khunywa kamalwa koo ako?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Mmmmmh my brother, what if you had like four wives? Would you make a timetable on who to take you home and which day or there was just the first wife who was supposed to take you home after taking alcohol?

[Luka Wafula] Eng'eneyo.

[Luka Wafula] That one.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeeh.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeeh.

[Luka Wafula] Aba engelania, nengaliana seli bali ebukula balosi boo bali abe owekhola mulala nali onywakho bilwa nelundi nali omwana osili wesikhana aba sanywa kamalwa sekecha emalwa ta.

[Luka Wafula] It will be a competition, it is not that you take your wives so that if there is one who drinks alcohol and especially if it was a girl, she was not supposed to drink alcohol or come to the place.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Hahaha, nono kuka sisiakilanga basakhulu atayi abele nebabona mbo bakali baba nende bakhasi babili bataru khubirira.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Hahaha, so, my brother, what was making the elderly see that many of them had two to three wives?

Siaba sina siareranga kamenako?

What was the reason behind that?

[Luka Wafula] Sisiareraga kamenako onyala wanyola omulosi woo kawele kamani.

[Luka Wafula] What caused that, you would find your wife to have become weak.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Mmmmhh.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Mmmmhh.

[Luka Wafula] Mala waloma oli tawe, namwe kebule babana.

[Luka Wafula] It will be because she has given birth to children.

Babana bakuchile muungo.

Children will be many at home.

Mala omulosi chana.

And the wife.

Omukhulu oyo salia nekekura ta.

That first wife will not be getting satisfied after eating.

Babechukhulu balimo, bisoni bilimo mala.

The grand and great grand children will be there.

Nono naye omusakhulu waloma ali aah aah lukoba luno lukhoyela khubamo bemaika babili.

The husband will decide that the home needs to have two wives.

Newacha wareba omukhana womundu.

He will go and woo someone's daughter.

Nio omukhana womundu oyo yesi bafukilisiana ali ndi nemosi yase umbe omwana yuno.

They will agree over the cow in order to be given the girl.

Nebosi bafukilila.

They would all agree.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeeeh.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeeeh.

[Luka Wafula] Babene bakachule eyo bafukilile nekene obone aruma katikila bewe bakhola bariena, bacha omukhana oyo ali eluchi bamuruma kamechi naba kane obone noyo naye karumile bandu nebecha bamutilila eluchi eyo nebacha naye.

[Luka Wafula] They would discuss then agree and you would see, he would send his close friends to go, the girl will be at the river fetching water, he would have sent people to take her by force from the river.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Bachila busa naye okhwo?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] They go with her like that?

[Luka Wafula] Bachila busa naye okhwo.

[Luka Wafula] Yes, they just go like that.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Bubi sa bwabakhoo namwe kumurungo bakhalake bali manya mwabukula omukhana wefwe?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Was there any fine for taking the girl like that?

[Luka Wafula] Kumurungo mbao ta sikila mawe kamanya, rarwe kamaya, akhaaba basoleli bali mungo omwo bamanya.

[Luka Wafula] There was no fine because her father and mother were aware, even the boys from that home would be aware.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nono balinga bakwangasiana khale?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] It looked like they had already agreed?

[Luka Wafula] Aba baulilisiana nebakharebane sebakhola bario tawe.

[Luka Wafula] They would have reached an agreement before doing that.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nenono kuka, bali baloma bali chikholo chiliyo bali benabo sekhukhwana ta.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] So my brother, there were some clans which you were not supposed to marry from.

Sina siareranga kamenako? Sina sikila khukhabeyana nende ababo ta? Sisiarengao siaba si?

What was the reason behind us not marrying from them?

[Luka Wafula] Yaba omundu yobona mulikho mwamenyana nanwe alinga sinaokho kidogo, barebanga mbo yuno kholo sina ekholo ndala ebechanga nekumwima ali omueambiambi namwe ali okenda silo.

[Luka Wafula] If you were to see a person, whether you lived close or from some distance, they would ask what clan that would be because some clans were known for bad behavior, a disrespectful person or she walks at night.

Nono omwana omukhana nalimo newe wepakho busa babola bali ewewe wepile mungo omwo kumwima kulimo namwe owemunywa mungo bayokela, mungo mpango sekulimo ta naye, socha wefwara mumakhuwa nga ako kario ta.

You would be wondering if there was a girl child, they say that, "You want to marry from a home in which they are disrespectful and mouthy," a home where they shout and they are not organized, you were not supposed to get involved with such things.

Namwe yabechanga nesikholwa, mungo nimwo bapanaka buli endalo namwe omundu kemikamo babola bali okhacha mungo omwo ta babandu abo berananga.

Alternatively there used to be a meaning behind it, the home where they fight daily or where someone hung themselves, they would warn you not to go to that home, those people kill themselves.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nabone kuka, ne nono kuka lundi nekhubololakho anyuma ao nekhukachula kamakhuwa ke kimiandu kio mubukusu, kimiandu kiomubukusu kiabechanga si?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] I have heard you, my elder, my elder, when we go back there, if we talk about a Bukusu's wealth, what was the wealth for a Bukusu?

Sina nende sina, nende sina nikio kimiandu kiomubukusu?

A Bukusu's wealth included what?

[Luka Wafula] Kimiandu kio mubukusua aba oli nengokho munju, oli nende likhese munju, oli nembusi munju, oli nekhafu munju.

[Luka Wafula] A Bukusu's wealth, you should have chicken, sheep, a goat and a cow at home.

Nikio kimiandu oli nebabana boo boosi babaya bindu bieniebio, bali lebe ali nekimiandu kiewe.

That is the wealth when you have your children, they also take care of the animals, they will say so and so has his wealth.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Babana boosi kimiandu nikio?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Children are also wealth?

[Luka Wafula] Kimiandu.

[Luka Wafula] Wealth.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Omukhasi kimiandu?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] The wife is wealth?

[Luka Wafula] Kimiandu.

[Luka Wafula] Wealth.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nabone kuka, nee kuka kholomekho ekhukhwa khuno?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] I have seen that, elder, now, let's talk about dowry.

Omundu omwene anyala kapa chikhafu kayila eburie wewe?

Can someone himself take the cows to the in-laws?

[Luka Wafula] Tawe.

[Luka Wafula] No.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Khubela si?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Why?

[Luka Wafula] Omundu oyoyo oyo wamisie omwana womundu kecha mungo mwoo naba papa womukhana oyo yesi kene arume bandu becha mungo mwo musakhulu niye omwana wewe achile mala arebe ali eeh papa wakhurumile kimiandu mungo muno, nono naloma ali chorebe rarao keche manyilisie bali chinga?

[Luka Wafula] When you have gotten someone's child to come in your home, then the father to the girl, he would also send people to come, the home his child would have gone to, he would then ask that, "Eeh father has sent us here for the wealth, if he tells you to go and ask your father, he should come and let us know how many?"

Lakini aba basoleli abo nibo babaula kimiandu babakanisia nebacha nakio.

But those boys are the ones who will hand over the cows (wealth) and they will go with them.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nibo babaula?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] It's them who carries out the dowry process?

[Luka Wafula] Eeh nibo babukula chikhafu ng'enecho nebayilila omusasi.

[Luka Wafula] Eeh, they are the ones who take those cows to the parent.

Nebayila mungo mwabwe.

They take them to their home.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Kuka liabakhoo mbo ewewe nga omusakhulu onyala wakaba omwichukhulu woo kumukunda omubele?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Elder, was it that you, as an elder, would give your first grandchild land?

[Luka Wafula] Eeh omwana omubele alinga wandayo, omwichukhulu woo ali wandayo niye.

[Luka Wafula] Your first child is like your sibling, your grandchild, he/she is a sibling.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeeh.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeeh.

[Luka Wafula] Nono kumukunda okwo nali omwana khasoleli namwe, namwe nali musoleli narerire omukhasi kukawe niye loma ali yicha unjetikiye khuyetane siba nesinyingilila mungo mwange aba oyo nono kekelile esimbo yewe, kekelile sikila rarawe.

[Luka Wafula] So that land, if it is a boy or if the boy marries, the grandfather is the one who will ask him to live close to him for them to help each other, "Anything that attacks me in my home," the boy becomes his walking stick.

Rarawe mwenoyo luno ali ewewe ali nebabana babandi noyoyo naye nekukawe ali oyo wandaye lundi omwana mwenoyo belangana lia wandayase samulanga ali kuka tawe.

Because the father will be at his home, he will have other children and the boy will be like a brother to the grandfather, he will call him brother and not grandfather.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeh anyala wamukhwela?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeh, can he pay his for his dowry?

[Luka Wafula] Amukhwela bulayi sana, nono oyo niye otengemea omwichukhulu wewe oyo onyoile bamunyola oyoyo niye wandaye niyakhwela.

[Luka Wafula] He can pay for his dowry without any problem, so it's him who depends on his first grandchild, he is the brother he has to pay dowry for.

Sacha khurarawe ta.

He doesn't go to his father.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Newaba nomulosi mala wabona oli ewe kamani kawele onyala walekhela omwichukhulu yuno welakho?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] What if you have a wife and you get weak, can you allow your grandson to date her?

[Luka Wafula] Omwichukhulu, nali omwana wesikhana, nali omukhana mala aundi kebule lulala namwe khabili no mwichukhulu woo oyo wekhengelangakho bitere oyo abola ali mama yuno nono ewewe niwe olinda nesarura mungo muno ta.

[Luka Wafula] If the lady is still young with only one or two births, your favourite grandson will request to take care of the lady in order for her not to leave that home.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nabone kuka.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Elder, I have seen it.

Nenono kuka olomile oli basilikha balwale bano babao oli busilikhi bwe babandu chindalo echo.

Elder, you said there were doctors taking care of the patients in those days.

Wailikhanga kaba busa yesi yesi namwe bandu babao?

Was it that any person would treat others or were there specific people?

[Luka Wafula] Tawe yaba mundu, balola omundu wamanya kamalesi akako niyo osilikha.

[Luka Wafula] No, there was a person, they looked for a person who knew the medicine to treat somone.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nenga omundu yuno, khulome khuli omundu yuno warurireo busilikhi bwakhayile, bele kumuyaka kwamuminyile nali omusecha bamusikha nebamulosisie waena namwee eeh balosia waena kuka?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] When this person, let's say this person is not there, treatment has failed, if he was a man and couldn't survive the disease, where does his head face when being buried?

[Luka Wafula] Omundu omusecha namwe yakhaba omukhasi yenyanga erurira sebalosiangayo omundu ta balosinga mumbo.

[Luka Wafula] A man or even a woman, they don't face a person where the sun rises from.

Yesi kakhaba omwana kakhaba omukhulu, abele omulosi woo obele wamwene.

Whether a child or an adult, whether your wife or yourself.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Khubela sina kuka bakhalosia aandi ta?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Elder, why don't they face the other side?

[Luka Wafula] Nga bakhalosia aandi nga bakhalosia aandi tawe bali enyanga, enyanga yerurira niyo omundu akhakona bamulosiayo kumurwe kwaba ebweneyo kwalola ebweneyo ta, kulola mumbo niyo enyanga ekwichanga.

[Luka Wafula] Why they can't face the other side is because where the sun rises from is where a person should sleep, they will not face his/her head there, the head faces where the sun sets at.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Naulile kuka. Ndebakho lundi lindi, kuka obona bali khabasikha omundu bali khabalolele kakonile bulayi namwe sekakonile bulayi ta khukona bubi buno nibwo khukona khuriena kuka.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Elder, I have heard you, elder, they normally check the body before burial just to confirm if the body would be facing the right direction, what does it imply when someone is said not to have slept well?

[Luka Wafula] Khukona bubi nali omukhasi namwe nyooe nende komusecha.

[Luka Wafula] If it is a woman sleeping wrongly or I should start by talking about a man.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nyoakho nende komusecha kuka.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Begin with that of a man elder.

[Luka Wafula] Omusecha yuno ali nekumubili kusala babandu mala anyala kaba khane akonile bubi kumubili okwo kwacha mumarango kwalola enyuma nono bakangamusha kumubili mwenokwo kwalolela ebweni.

[Luka Wafula] This man has a body that sires people, he might not have slept well, the body might have faced at the back from the hips, so they will separate the parts to face the front.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Kwarura mumarango.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] To get out of the hips.

[Luka Wafula] Kwarura mumarango.

[Luka Wafula] To get out of the hips.

Bali yuno omusasi we babandu sanywa neke, sebamusikha nekekhonile ta bubi aba akhakhumale.

Being an adult, he wouldn't be buried while folding himself, it would have a bad consequence to the family.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Anyala kakhumala?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] He can finish us?

Bamulekha bario naba ekholo enyala yaela namwe?

If he is left like that, the whole clan might perish or what?

[Luka Wafula] Ekholo, seli bali ekholo ta omwene akelao wakobola ali mwandekha semwang’ona ta.

[Luka Wafula] It is not the clan, he will come back in dreams and say he was not taken care of.

Ali ese nafwa nafwa omunani nga omundu okhali ta mala kumubili kwase mwalekha mumarango kwalekha khutambulika bali kwakholile kurie ta.

Saying that I died, "Like a person who was not important and you left my body folded in the hips," that it wasn't able to be identified.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nono kuka lifwa lino khumanyile khuli liama khale lubekakho nebulwale kalikhoo kakandi kakharerile lifwa lino?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] So elder, we know death started long ago, other than sickness, was there something else that caused death?

[Luka Wafula] Bulwale khwasalwa nabwo.

[Luka Wafula] We were born with sickness.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeeh kuka.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeeh, elder.

[Luka Wafula] Wele newe nosalwa osaba wele namwe nee papa asaba wele khakhana khano khakhola khariena khoosi khabona mubandu, nekhakhana khenakho bakhusia akhana khenakho nebakhakelekela nibio khakhola, nibio khakhoebwe khukhola nende nibio khakhakhola ta.

[Luka Wafula] When you are born, you pray to God or the father prays to God about the child for the child to succeed and so he can take care of that child, they take care of the child and guide the child on what he/she is supposed to do and not supposed to do.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nenono sinyala siarera lifwa, siakhabele sina nga omubukusu asubila.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] What is it that can bring death according to a Bukusu belief?

[Luka Wafula] Lifwa lili khuwele seli nende khuloma mbo omundu safwa tawe.

[Luka Wafula] Death is determined by God and not by someone not dying.

Namwe abele omwana omutoro ako kali khuwele.

Whether it is a small child, everything depends on God.

Wele omulongi walonga liloba nelikulu niye omwene bibienebwo, akha bindu mbo nibio khuulilanga mbo bikumba, balosi abo basalwanga babechangao basalwa khukhwama kimila yabwe nebaliyo bakhabechanga balosi ta.

That depends on God who created Earth and Heaven, He is the owner of that, we hear about witchcraft called the bones, those witches were born and were there, that was their tradition though there were others who were not witches.

Lakini balosi batimanga silo abo bapanga busa kimiliango lakini seberanga bandu ta.

But the night runners just used to bang on the doors and they didn't kill people.

Akhaba chindemu chino mbo bandu ne chechile busa chiri, khaba bandu sababayangakho chindemu ta.

People never used to keep snakes, they started keeping them recently.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nabone kuka, nono olabona omundu kafwile aba kamakhuwa ako kakewe nende wele?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] I have heard you elder, if you see a person dying then that is between him/her and God?

[Luka Wafula] Kakewe omwene, ne lwibulo lwewe mala bienebio aundi ekimila yabwe kalimo lakini busa tawe omubukusu omwene alia nebabandu lundi kekhala nebabandu, lundi apakanga ali omundu niye omenyile naye niye wango-bamulanganga bali wangoyo okhwirira sisicha sibirao nabwenao bindu biamakhubechanga birafu bikali.

[Luka Wafula] That is between him/her and God, with his/her family, sometimes it might be their traditions, but a Bukusu him/herself eats and sits with people, again he/she thinks that the person you live with was referred to as your cowife, who would kill for you, whatever comes your way, those days there were so many dangerous things that would attack.

Chingwe chilikho, kamanani kalikho, bibulukhu bilikho, chisimba chilikho eeeh namunyu alikho kakhila ta nga bwilabula busa namunyu mwenoyo kakhuatakho nisio oli nasio akhubukule.

The leopard, ogre, bush dog, lions, and hyenas would be there, they were many, when it got late the hyenas would arrive, it would take whatever you had.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Orio kuka, kuka nono nenyile khukachulekho kamakhuwa kembalu kano, nenyile khukachulekho embalu yino, khumanye embalu yino kuka omanyile oli yanja erie?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Thank you, elder, I wanted us to talk about circumcision as a right of passage, do you know how it started?

[Luka Wafula] Embalu?

[Luka Wafula] Circumcision?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Yee kuka.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Yes, elder.

[Luka Wafula] Nono embalu yanja efwe nekhukhamanya khuli khulisalwa ta, khwanyola fwesi nga nekhukhula khunyola kuka kakhebwa, papa wakhebwa, eeeh lundi bakhebi bababoo ata khwakorwa nanu sikila yaba khwama noli mutiti oreba oli nemukhebi sina okhameyo nekakhebe?

[Luka Wafula] Circumcision began before we even knew we were to be born, we found it existing as we grew up because we found our grandfather who was already circumcised, father was circumcised, eeeh, and traditional mohel were there, we didn't know them because while we were young, we would inquire on the person supposed to circumcise you.

Nekene nga okhebulilanga wola munafasi yenyekhane.

You would then find yourself in the right moment.

Bandu nebakhula, omwana yesi kakhulile bamuruma aruma yeng’ene, kombakha enju yeng’ene?

As people get old and the child grows up to the extent of being able to be sent on errands alone, he can build a house alone.

Omwana oyo babola bali aah omwana yuno waangale nono lola omukhebi chinyanga cholile kuno kumwaka kuno akhebwa.

They would say, "this child has matured, look for someone to circumcise him this year."

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nabone kuka, nono bele omundu nawakhakhebwa bamala wama mwikombe, aba anyala wabeya?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] I have heard you, elder, after the circumcision rituals, was someone allowed to marry?

[Luka Wafula] Khubeya khuno, yaba sakhwabao ta, yaba asiselela busa mbo kanyolile omwana wo mundu ne papa wewe ne maayi wewe bamubolele bali nekhuli khukenda bali oima omukhasi, cha mukholo fulani ekholo eyo silibwa esieso silayi nonyolamo omukhasi aba wanyolile omukhasi we kamani okane akhuwelesie mungo muno bulamu.

[Luka Wafula] Marrying was not there, courtship is what he was allowed to do, if he had found someone, his father and mother would advise him how to go by a certain clan, that clan has a good reputation, "If you get a wife from that clan you will have found a strong woman who will give you life in this home."

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Orio kuka, nono kuka ndi aba khubalilekho bibingilo nibio ewe oelewa? Wakana okhuwekho nekimiaka kabali okimanyile?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Thank you, elder, please would you count for us the circumcision age sets and the years if you know them.

[Luka Wafula] Kimiaka lelo bakhubolelanga nenono aundi mbo manyekho, ese papa unjibula ali omusawa sikala.

[Luka Wafula] Nowadays they tell you the years then you see a person, if I know, my biological father is Omusawa age set who has remained.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeeh.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Eeeh.

[Luka Wafula] Kama khurakho Maliongo, kamakhurakho bali Lutundu, kamakhurakhoo eeeh.

[Luka Wafula] Follwoed by Maliongo, followed by Lutundu, followed by.

[Luka Wafula, whispering he had forgotten the others]

[Luka Wafula, whispering he had forgotten the others]

[Both] Hahaha. [Luka Wafula] Bisuche.

[Both] Hahaha. [Luka Wafula] Bisuche.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nebakolongolo nabo kuka?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Elder, how about Bakolongolo?

[Luka Wafula] Yama khurakho bakolongolo bano bakolongolo bano nibo babanyoa bali ebwayi nibo bakolongola boosi.

[Luka Wafula] There followed the Bakolongolo, Bakolongolo are the ones who were at the front, they were good at taking care of animals.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nebakananachi nabo?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] What of the Bakananachi?

[Luka Wafula] Bakananachi bano bamakhwicha bamakhwicha ekhumalilikha, nono nibo babama khwicha baba kharano.

[Luka Wafula] The Bakananachi came at the end, they are the one who came in at number five.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Mmmhh, nono kuka nebaloma bali bakolongolo, bakolongolo bano bakolongolanga si?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Mmmhh, so, elder, when they say Bakolongolo, what were they collecting?

[Luka Wafula] Eeh bakolongolo.

[Luka Wafula] The Bakolongolo age set.

Nibo babanyoa khwiye.

They were the first one to face the war.

Bakolongolo yamakhubao.

About the Bakolongolo age set, there was.

Endemu bali yabebe.

There was a monstrous snake.

Naye yama khwicha.

It came.

Endemu eyo yebaya chikhafu sira ta.

It used to disturb those who were looking after the cows.

Niyebaya chikhafu ta.

It was difficult for the cows to graze.

Mala bakolongolo bano nibo babene babama khukhola bariena.

It is the Bakolongolo themselves who decided on what to do.

Baba nibo babama khupana bibindu bienebio.

They are the ones who decided to fight those things.

Biawa.

They ended.

Bandu baulilisiania, bandu bakenda mundaa.

People came together and walked in the bush.

Neyaba lundi buleme, bandu, sebakhinda weng'ene busa aba sakane okobosie ekhafu yoo mungo ta.

It was risk for someone to look after the cows alone, you may not have been able to take your cow back home.

Obona bindu biakhunulile.

Strange things would snatch it from you.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nabone kuka.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] I have understood that, elder.

[Luka Wafula] Aba chingwe choosi, chingwe, chinamunyu bibulukhu kamanani aba kaliyo khwiwe na sibala siasira kumubimbi babandu sebali bakali khusibala ta, bandu batiti.

[Luka Wafula] Including the leopards, hyenas and ogres, they would be on you, the world is round and people are not many, people are few.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Orio kuka, kuka ewewe wama khukhola muserikali eyino.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Thank you, elder, you worked in this government.

Neserekali yino nokhanja khukikholamo ta atayi aoo buruki buno bwaba buriena?

Before you started working with this government, how was leadership long ago?

Mwaba nomukasa, mwaba ne, omwami kaba arie?

Was there a village elder? What was the leader like?

Namwe yaba busa buli omundu, buli ekholo yaba nende omwimelesi wao?

Or was it just everyone, every clan had their own leader?

Kaba karie ewe nokhanja buruki muserikali tawe?

How was it like before you started working in the government?

[Luka Wafula] Efwe khukhulila bali sabuchifu khwakhulila mulukongo khwakhulila bali oyuno chachi mulango we sibala olinda birekere bibindu biene biama khubechanga lukali omundu mwenoyo aba omuruki akhaba butinyu nebukwile batima wa chachi mulango oyo niye oyilila lukongo likhuwa nekali kamakali, kamabi basi nekola wa chifu.

[Luka Wafula] We grew up, the sub chief, we grew up in a village where he was the leader of the world, one who takes care of the villages, those things were mostly, that person was a leader, whenever there was a problem, they would rush to the village elder and the report would be taken to the senior village elder, if it was a serious issue, it was to be taken to the chief.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Mmmmhh.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Mmmmhh.

[Luka Wafula] Aba nono chifu niye ocha khukamala.

[Luka Wafula] The chief would then make a decision.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nono ewe wamakhwanja buruki buno mwaka sina nowengila muserikali?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] So which year did you begin being a leader in the government?government?

[Luka Wafula] Kenyatta nekamiya, esese khwekhalakho nende Kenyatta senama khukhubolela.

[Luka Wafula] When Kenyatta was the president, I have told you I sat with Kenyatta.

Kenyatta ese endi khuburuki Kenyatta arurakho, nelundi sebiabechanga bindu biakhukhola bali bandu bakhobanilakho busa oli nebali khulibakilo ta.

Kenyatta, I was in power, Kenyatta left, there were no things like now, people were fighting like they were in a slaughter house.

Yaba bandu bakendanga kalaa.

People used to walk slowly.

Nekhudaka ng'eneyo.

At that minute.

Khudaka ng'eneyo.

That minute.

Kenyatta kama khuamiya.

Kenyatta was the ruler.

Nio basungu bakhulekhela nafasi.

That is when white men give us the chance.

Basi nono ngabamutawalisia.

As they made him the official leader.

Aba omuruki mala babola khuli khokhulakana nawe kimiaka kirano.

They said they were making a five year agreement with him.

Nekali bali sibala sitengala, nomusungu akobola.

If the country becomes unstable, the white man would come back.

Nekaba bali sibala olikho oendesia.

If you will be running the country.

Oendesha paka Maisha koo.

You will run the country for the rest of your life.

Nono omusungu aba omubolela nebalekhela nono Kenyatta endebe.

The white man was the one telling Kenyatta, they left him in power.

Kenyatta kanja khukhuruka.

Kenyatta started ruling.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nabone kuka, nono kuka nekhumalilisia ndeba ndi buruki bwe chindalo chino nende bwa atayi aoo bulina nibwo obona oli bwaba bulayi?

[Ngulukhi Sindani] I have understood you, elder, now, as we conclude, I want to know, the leadership of today and that of the old days, which one do you see to be better?

[Luka Wafula] Buruki bwaluno, eeeh akhaba Kenyatta sakachakho mbaraa ebwingeresa ta buruki yaba bwekhuima chisendi bwabechanga eneno, nono chisendi nga nachama khwicha chabachingali buli mundu ali nja khukhwaya busa nebiakila nabwila sibala nesionekha siri.

[Luka Wafula] The current leadership, eeeh, even if, I don't think Kenyatta ever went to America, the leadership was about looking for money, it used to be here, when money came, it became a lot and everyone wanted to go and pick, that is why the country got destroyed like this.

Nono buli mwana nende busomi nono bwakhilakhilane waba bukali.

Every child got more education which led to competition.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Nono mubwimbi oloma oli buruki sabulinga bwatayi obwo tawe, obuno bubi.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] In short, you are saying the current leadership is not like the one in the old days, the current one is bad.

[Luka Wafula] Obuno bubi, obuno bwe bwifwi, lakini yaba abele khudaka echecho bakhunyola ata bakhumina chimbafu wauka.

[Luka Wafula] This one is bad and thieving, but those days, if they got you, they would press your ribs and leave you wondering.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Asandi kuka kene khukhurebe lundi kakandi.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Thank you, elder, we will ask you about something else.

Nono kuka khane kamasina olomile oli bali nanu?

Elder, you said your name was?

[Luka Wafula] Esese bali Wafula.

[Luka Wafula] I am Wafula.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Bali Wafula.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] You are Wafula.

[Luka Wafula] Lilindi bali Luka.

[Luka Wafula] The other name is Luka.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Bali Luka.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] You say Luka.

Likurisitayo bakhubatisia bali Luka.

Is it a christian name, you were baptized as Luka.

Orio kuka.

Thank you, elder.

[Luka Wafula] Nepapa Namunabwa, papa naye kebulwa nende Kituyi.

[Luka Wafula] My father is called Namunabwa, he is Kituyi's agemate.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Orio kuka owama khukhurebangana bali Ngulukhi Sindani murio barekeresi.

[Ngulukhi Sindani] Thank you, elder, I am Ngulukhi Sindani who was asking questions, thank you listeners.